Genre Badges 2.0

Since it was mentioned at the end of CK's MotM, I wanted push the subject matter forward again.

A genre badge system with a leaderboard would be great here! It would drive more traffic and would be even more unique to the site. I propose that the system be similar to what Fshguy had created over at 360Voice, but it can be better here. It should have it's own leaderboard so it doesn't interfere with the current GTN badge system, which is great as is.

This would be a brand new system which can start small with just one genre to flesh out how the system would work. Lets start with FPS there is a health supply of games there. I loved the old 5 star system with points, but I would love to see a genre leader and a two tier set of badges for the casual and hardcore gamer. Casual gamers get an orange set of badges and if they want to peruse more then they go green. So each genre would have 11 badges to chase down:

5 badges for the casual gamer. The badges would be orange or have an orange ring and the user would just have to play a game in the genre to move up the 5 star tiers based on X amount of games in the genre divided by the 5 badges.
5 badges for the hardcore gamer. The badges would be green or have a green ring. The more gamerscore the user has in the listed games the higher they move through the 5 badges based on X amount of gamerscore divided into 5 badges.
1 badge for the genre leader. The gamer with the highest gamerscore in the genre is the leader. If the badge is maxed out by 2 or more users then the badge is shared.

The badgescore should work on 2 levels. A base score listed below:

1 Star - Base 0 badgescore + plus current ownership count system
2 Star - Base 25 badgescore + plus current ownership count system
3 Star - Base 50 badgescore + plus current ownership count system
4 Star - Base 75 badgescore + plus current ownership count system
5 Star - Base 100 badgescore + plus current ownership count system

The point system based on the amount of gamers that have the badge could like this point system:

# of Badge Owners (Point Value)
0-5 (100)
5-10 (95)
11-25 (90)
26-50 (85)
51-100 (80)
101-250 (75)
251-500 (70)
501-1000 (65)
1001-2000 (60)
2001-3000 (55)
3001-4000 (50)
4001-5000 (45)
5001-7500 (40)
7501-10,000 (35)
10,001-15,000 (30)
15,001-20,000 (25)
20,001-25,000 (20)
25,001+ (10)

Now there are a LOT of games out there. So we should just focus on the Consoles. I would also like to have the 360 and One be separate.

These are my initial thoughts, there are a lot of genres so this can be really fun once it is fleshed out and completed. Eric will need to make the call obviously. How much time will it take to code? Can it be coded? So lets discuss it and see if we as a community can make this happen.

I'd be all for it if somebody could come up with a system that works for everybody. I've been traumatized by all of the complaints for years.

Main issues to be addressed:
-old games, unobtainable achievements
-how do you make it fair for international people that don't have access to some games(some are restricted by content licensing that can't be worked around)
-how to you balance the # of badge points so the people with the highest gamerscore doesn't completely override the whole badge points system
-personally, I don't think it's fair that if you can't lose badges for a genre system. Either you like the genre or you don't. You don't get to stay 5th or whatever on the gamescore leaderboard just cause you earned the first 100k 10 years ago.

Main issues to be addressed:

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Oh this is easy, solving problems is what I do..

-old games, unobtainable achievements

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Tough shit, you should have started earlier, that's life when you are late the party

-how do you make it fair for international people that don't have access to some games(some are restricted by content licensing that can't be worked around)

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Tough shit, import.

-how to you balance the # of badge points so the people with the highest gamerscore doesn't completely override the whole badge points system

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Tough shit, Smrnov is going to have more than you. You don't like it, put in 12 hours a day for a decade. Otherwise stfu, no participation awards here. Go cry to your mother, she's probably the only one that cares.

-personally, I don't think it's fair that if you can't lose badges for a genre system. Either you like the genre or you don't. You don't get to stay 5th or whatever on the gamescore leaderboard just cause you earned the first 100k 10 years ago.

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Tough shit. If you don't like a genre, don't go after the badge. Once badge is earned, it was earned. If there is a badge for being #1 on leaderboard and you hit #1 and earned it you deserve that award for all eternity. Once World Champ, always world champ. No one confiscates Super Bowl rings when the next season starts.

For example: I don't have the 75% or 90% completion rate badges, even though at one point I'm positive I had easily met the requirements. Never once have I complained that all the newbies who sign up and play a bunch of simple games get these badges with easy and I have tons of import games or rental crap, whatever on my tag. Tough shit for me.

See, that was easy. Let me know if there are any other problems you want me to solve.

No one confiscates Super Bowl rings when the next season starts.

Originally Posted by Kaens

You have no idea how badly I want this to become a reality. That would be absolutely amazing.

You have no idea how badly I want this to become a reality. That would be absolutely amazing.

Originally Posted by futiles

Haha, Just one big ring that gets passed around like the Stanley Cup.

This would be fun even in a beta sign-up form to see how it will work before it could be implemented for everyone site wide. Very intriguing someone should talk to Eric to see if a moderated edition could be set up and have a small number of test subjects.

You have no idea how badly I want this to become a reality. That would be absolutely amazing.

Originally Posted by futiles

You're not talking about when a team gets caught cheating multiple times over years and still gets to keep their trophies?

No and follow that up with no......oh wait...I'm not in charge here.

Do whatever the fuck you want to do.

Haha, Just one big ring that gets passed around like the Stanley Cup.

Originally Posted by MarvzMitts

And in my example, Stanley Cup does not get the names scratched off. It's a full history of everyone who's ever won it.

No and follow that up with no......oh wait...I'm not in charge here.

Do whatever the fuck you want to do.

Originally Posted by Mightymango

I think you, Fshguy, DoT, and I have a unique perspective on genre badges. Not necessarily right or wrong, but, unique. (Change, Fatty, and Squid would have another unique perspective, too.)

Oh this is easy, solving problems is what I do..
Tough shit. If you don't like a genre, don't go after the badge. Once badge is earned, it was earned. If there is a badge for being #1 on leaderboard and you hit #1 and earned it you deserve that award for all eternity. Once World Champ, always world champ. No one confiscates Super Bowl rings when the next season starts.

For example: I don't have the 75% or 90% completion rate badges, even though at one point I'm positive I had easily met the requirements. Never once have I complained that all the newbies who sign up and play a bunch of simple games get these badges with easy and I have tons of import games or rental crap, whatever on my tag. Tough shit for me.

See, that was easy. Let me know if there are any other problems you want me to solve.

Originally Posted by Kaens

Maybe it's that way here, but on 360 voice you whined about this all of the time, and "tough shit" didn't work for you... People lost badges. So how does that solve the problem now?

You don't get to keep your job, house, whatever just cause you worked hard last year. That's life. Why should you get a badge and get to keep it that represents your commitment to a genre 10 years ago?

Anyhow, there are a lot of site participation badges here, there should be a balance between those and genres, if that were such a thing. We ended up with 30-40 genres(somebody can go count if they wish) cause a genre got "too big". If the genres are were a little more general and games are allowed in multiple genres, that might solve some of the problems.

Oh, can you do something about the whiners that only show up and complain about stuff, but don't participate in the forums otherwise?

But at the end of the day people will complain about whatever solution you come up with, so better to not bother in the first place.

Is there any reason not to add such badges to the existing pool instead of a new system? I'm just curious, as I'm not familiar with your other setup.

I would find myself somewhere between Kaens and Fshguy.

Games should never leave a genre. It had servers close, patches added, or whatever, and a portion of achievements aren't available anymore? Tough shit.

15 new games came out in the FPS genre, and you are no longer a 5-star FPS genre holder, and your badge was reduced to reflect your current level? Tough shit.

Maybe it's that way here, but on 360 voice you whined about this all of the time, and "tough shit" didn't work for you... People lost badges. So how does that solve the problem now?

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Tough shit did work for me, I was stuck loosing my badges (well number of stars on my badge) and as a result I stopped even trying for them because it wasn't fun. Obviously I wasn't the only one, the site is dead.

You don't get to keep your job, house, whatever just cause you worked hard last year. That's life. Why should you get a badge and get to keep it that represents your commitment to a genre 10 years ago?

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Same reason I still have my Exceptional Performance awards from the 2 years I worked at the CIA. And yeah, I do get to keep my house/car/whatever after I've paid for it, that's exactly how that works. I've bought two new cars cash and no one came and took them from me ever.

Anyhow, there are a lot of site participation badges here, there should be a balance between those and genres, if that were such a thing. We ended up with 30-40 genres(somebody can go count if they wish) cause a genre got "too big". If the genres are were a little more general and games are allowed in multiple genres, that might solve some of the problems.

Originally Posted by Fshguy

To be clear, I'm fine with genre badge, just not the taking them away, but for funsies I'll argue that we don't need them at all. Why have genre badges that have this challenge of disappearing/reappearing when instead this site has specific games or game series badges. Seems like a much better way to do it. Recently I got my Far Cry 100% completion badge based on a game that I completed back in 2006. Servers are gone (maybe I dunno, but it had multiplayer) and so maybe someone can't get the badge for that but they can get it for completing Far Cry 4. GTN does it better. GTN still here, 360v gone.

Oh, can you do something about the whiners that only show up and complain about stuff, but don't participate in the forums otherwise?

But at the end of the day people will complain about whatever solution you come up with, so better to not bother in the first place.

Originally Posted by Fshguy

The people who complain about QN are worse than QN imo. We all have to filter through people/interactions we don't like every day. I think the best way to deal with it, and I bet this is how everyone that bitches about him here does it in their real lives, is to ignore them. We don't go off on some long rant each time the teen behind the register is giving us poor service because she's chatting with her friends instead of ringing you up. I don't really understand why it's so difficult to ignore QN. I don't know how you are browsing the forums that you cannot see the author of the thread before you "waste your time" going in and seeing you don't approve of the quality of the post. Instead of opening it, look to the right and click the "mark as read" button. When you see there are 20 comments, resist the urge, still click "mark as read" cause you KNOW from experience, there is nothing in that thread for you. Anyhow, I'm ranting about a different issue than genre badges.

Make badges, I'll earn them. That's my stance, do it however you want. I'll earn them.

Tough shit did work for me, I was stuck loosing my badges (well number of stars on my badge) and as a result I stopped even trying for them because it wasn't fun. Obviously I wasn't the only one, the site is dead.

Originally Posted by Kaens

I rate this as Pants on Fire, it didn't work for you, you just quit. And you know better the site is not dead cause of the genre system. BTW, it's still there...

Same reason I still have my Exceptional Performance awards from the 2 years I worked at the CIA. And yeah, I do get to keep my house/car/whatever after I've paid for it, that's exactly how that works. I've bought two new cars cash and no one came and took them from me ever.

Originally Posted by Kaens

Partially true... I used a bad analogy about things you buy, unless you fail to pay your taxes or your car wears out.

To be clear, I'm fine with genre badge, just not the taking them away, but for funsies I'll argue that we don't need them at all. Why have genre badges that have this challenge of disappearing/reappearing when instead this site has specific games or game series badges. Seems like a much better way to do it. Recently I got my Far Cry 100% completion badge based on a game that I completed back in 2006. Servers are gone (maybe I dunno, but it had multiplayer) and so maybe someone can't get the badge for that but they can get it for completing Far Cry 4. GTN does it better. GTN still here, 360v gone.

Originally Posted by Kaens

You might have a point, depends on what the point of have genres is? To lead the leaderboard? To show which games are your favorite? Or at least the ones that you play cause they have easy points? (remember there were days played metrics? People would stick a disc in every day just to get these) sigh...

The people who complain about QN are worse than QN imo. We all have to filter through people/interactions we don't like every day. I think the best way to deal with it, and I bet this is how everyone that bitches about him here does it in their real lives, is to ignore them. We don't go off on some long rant each time the teen behind the register is giving us poor service because she's chatting with her friends instead of ringing you up. I don't really understand why it's so difficult to ignore QN. I don't know how you are browsing the forums that you cannot see the author of the thread before you "waste your time" going in and seeing you don't approve of the quality of the post. Instead of opening it, look to the right and click the "mark as read" button. When you see there are 20 comments, resist the urge, still click "mark as read" cause you KNOW from experience, there is nothing in that thread for you. Anyhow, I'm ranting about a different issue than genre badges.

Originally Posted by Kaens

Mostly false... Any one person shouldn't be allowed to disrupt a site as much has Quickz has.

Make badges, I'll earn them. That's my stance, do it however you want. I'll earn them.

Originally Posted by Kaens

Mostly true... except if you deem the system to be unfun, but you'll still do it, like those completion percentages.

I rate this as Pants on Fire, it didn't work for you, you just quit. And you know better the site is not dead cause of the genre system. BTW, it's still there...

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Yeah the digs on the site being dead was completely me being petty. Sorry. But yeah, if I didn't like it I'm not going to participate, these sites are still for fun right?

Partially true... I used a bad analogy about things you buy, unless you fail to pay your taxes or your car wears out.

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Even if my car wears out, no one is going to take it from me, it is actually less valuable then, but the tax man will take anything of value!

You might have a point, depends on what the point of have genres is? To lead the leaderboard? To show which games are your favorite? Or at least the ones that you play cause they have easy points? (remember there were days played metrics? People would stick a disc in every day just to get these) sigh...

Originally Posted by Fshguy

I do know that people did that, I was actually the opposite of that and horrified when it said I played that Bug game for 100+ days.

Mostly false... Any one person shouldn't be allowed to disrupt a site as much has Quickz has.

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Depends on if you blame QN for other people's reaction to his posts. I don't have the desire to go pull examples (futiles would) but I feel like QN has made a post, and people have done more spam in his post complaining about the post, than his original posts. Some of his stuff has 20 responses, only 3-4 of them are legit, the rest is other members complaining. So if you blame QN for other people reaction to him, then yeah I agree with you. But if I blow up at the woman at the register, even if some people agree with me, all of them think I'm the asshole.

Mostly true... except if you deem the system to be unfun, but you'll still do it, like those completion percentages.

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Well of course, this is my hobby time, I'm only going to do things that are fun for me. I'll do things that aren't fun, like work on my completion percentage, because the 'fun' of earning the badge outweighs the 'unfun' of playing games I quit long ago. Right now I can make that determination because I know how much fun it will be to earn the 75% badge.

Let's take the Kinect completions badge instead. I have 26 completions and I don't think that going for 50 completion badge is worth it for me because it's not worth enough points. But for this example, let's make two changes to make it comparable to the genre badge system that was in place at 360v. First instead of being a set amount of completions, it was a % complete, and games that are Kinect only today are magically no longer Kinect only games because someone (who is an actively competing for these badges btw) has decided it is so. So I have my 26 out of 50 Kinect only games and I start working towards my 50. It is a goddamn slog, and let's say week after week I grind through a retail Kinect game, two months and I'm now at 34 of 50. The struggle is real but I'm doing it, I'm in, let's do this. Now the "badge council" has decided that Kinect Gems don't count and I loose 10 completions. Not only have lost 10 games towards my 50 badge, but I now loose my 25 Kinect completions badge. I might do one more just to regain my 25 of 50 badge but then I'm quitting your system. If you think that wasn't a factor in the traffic pattern of 360v you are mistaken.

Badges/trophies/achievements/challenges all mark an accomplishment. The rise and fall and maintaining status you are trying to shoe horn into badges is what leaderboards are for. Leaderboards change, leaderboard require maintenance, but badges should not. Imagine if your achievements were temporary and you had to go replay your games every year to maintain having beat the game on hard. It's the same thing and I swear to God, if that happens here and it's not done well I will be gone. You can be #1 in badges and I'll slip to whatever position, but I'll just move on to somewhere that doesn't piss on it's members.

But at the end of the day people will complain about whatever solution you come up with, so better to not bother in the first place.

Originally Posted by Fshguy

Careful, you're starting to sound very much like me

It's very true though. Folks lose interest for various reasons. Working on the current badges is simply not for me. That doesn't mean they're bad...many just don't fit into anything I care about. For example, I'd rather get stabbed with an aids infected needle than work on app badges. If my console is on (and I'm the one who turned it on), it will be playing games not novelty stuff and it'll be a cold day in hell when I give up my limited playtime to watch someone else play games (still cannot fathom the popularity of Twitch at all). However, Twitch and other apps are popular, so whining about it would be senseless/stupid. A lot of folks have a hard time looking at things from any angle other than their own though, so complaints won't go away anytime soon.

Considering all of the work you do, I feel bad anytime you get complaints. That's the thing though, it's a lot easier to throw out advice from the sidelines than to be the one responsible for actually calling the plays. I'm just glad you are level headed. Giving everyone everything they ask for isn't usually a good idea and being a "tough shit" or "fuck you, pay me" guy is even worse. I'm glad you're in the middle of the spectrum or these discussions would be 100x worse

Depends on if you blame QN for other people's reaction to his posts. I don't have the desire to go pull examples (futiles would) but I feel like QN has made a post, and people have done more spam in his post complaining about the post, than his original posts. Some of his stuff has 20 responses, only 3-4 of them are legit, the rest is other members complaining. So if you blame QN for other people reaction to him, then yeah I agree with you. But if I blow up at the woman at the register, even if some people agree with me, all of them think I'm the asshole.

Originally Posted by Kaens

I think you are pretty accurate on this one. In fact, I pointed this out almost exactly in the "spamming" thread.

Anyhow, there are a lot of site participation badges here, there should be a balance between those and genres, if that were such a thing. We ended up with 30-40 genres(somebody can go count if they wish) cause a genre got "too big". If the genres are were a little more general and games are allowed in multiple genres, that might solve some of the problems.

Oh, can you do something about the whiners that only show up and complain about stuff, but don't participate in the forums otherwise?

But at the end of the day people will complain about whatever solution you come up with, so better to not bother in the first place.

Originally Posted by Fshguy

There were 42 genres. People will always complain and if they don't participate in the forum other then to complain then their post should be take at face value and ignored. If they have a valid point then that is fair game. I appreciated all the work that was done on the badges at 360Voice.

Is there any reason not to add such badges to the existing pool instead of a new system? I'm just curious, as I'm not familiar with your other setup.

Originally Posted by Obsidian Tides

The reason I suggested having them separate is to maintain the current system as is, so that Stallion and Smrnov would not automatically be #1 & #2. People have worked hard on their badges here getting to #1. Just adding genres to the mix solely based on gamerscore would destroy that and people would not be happy. Even in the old system, Stallion & Smrnov were dethroned from the top spots, so it can happen.

Attaching what the old system looked like.